the Fly Clone Project

This is a great thread, Marc; thanks again for getting it started! I’ve enjoyed reading what others have written.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:36 am Does anyone have more to add to Dingus’ points regarding how much the condition or specs of a particular Parker guitar should reasonably add or detract from its resale value?

Somewhat abstract, but, for me, I’d be willing to pay about $500 for the assurance that I don’t need to take the Fly to some Geppetto in order to get it in playing condition. At this point, I know what these instruments play like and, generally, what they will sound like in my hands, so I think I view listings based on whether they’re “a project fixer-upper as-is” Fly or a “this one is ready to go” Fly. @Dingus’ recent listing in the Classifieds, for example, is very inviting because it seems like I’d know what i’d be getting into.

I arrived at $500 (above) by estimating the things I know that could be wrong with a Fly without the seller knowing it and 1) how much I’d need to pay to fix them or 2) how much I’d lose in putting the instrument back on the used marketplace while disclosing the shortcomings. If a listing said “here are the numbers on the action with a set of D’Addario 10s, and I promise you everything works”, I’d be inclined to believe that seller and then I wouldn’t need to wonder what sorts of headaches I’d encounter down the road if needed to make an adjustment in order to accommodate a different gauge of strings.

I don’t know why anyone would be inclined to buy a Fly because the listing says “rare” or “prices are starting to rise”, but i don’t view guitars as investments or decor or collectibles; no judgment intended, however. If I saw a koa Fly for sale, I’d want it for the tonal color and not at all for the finish color.

I do think I’m programmed (to some degree) to think that a deal for a beat-up Fly is around $1200 and any Fly above $3,500 better be really special!

Don't want to hijack the thread VJ but I've never had a Fly out of 15 or so arrive in anything but completely perfect working order and near perfect playability. Can't say that about Niteflys. The consistency is unreal and maybe that's because I've never bought one in anything less than excellent shape, I don't know. But when I buy one I've never been disappointed at the setup straight out the box and believe me, Parkers are what made me an unrealistic asshole when it comes to guitar action But your point is dually noted, I'll be adding measurements tonight lol But I agree, over 3500 better be special . I paid 3500 for my S2 and it's worth every penny!

Dingus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:28 pm Parkers are what made me an unrealistic asshole when it comes to guitar action

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:33 am I’d be willing to pay about $500 for the assurance that I don’t need to take the Fly to some Geppetto in order to get it in playing condition.

Whereas I’m Geppetto; and will talk myself into buying beaters to save $500+, knowing I can do the repairs myself. It’s about the only way I can still talk myself into feeling thrifty about buying yet another guitar.

What’s funnier yet about that position is the listings I pass over because they’re lost causes: Some sellers seemingly won’t budge on the asking price of their firewood Flys, citing erroneously that “any qualified repair person should be able fix this Fly’s truss rod” or “I’ll include the missing frets in a sandwich bag; which will save you money.” And three days later, you see the Facebook group posts from the suckers who bought them at asking price, bragging “This baby’s on its way home, right now .”

Dingus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:28 pm I've never had a Fly out of 15 or so arrive in anything but completely perfect working order and near perfect playability […] maybe that's because I've never bought one in anything less than excellent shape

Out of six Flys, I’ve had two that left the factory or seller’s house not “in need” of work (which I nonetheless modded to hell and back). Then again, every Fly I’ve bought was due to convincing myself the deal was too good to pass up (I ended up buying my Supreme instead of an Aristides for this reason; meaning I've nonetheless still been GASing for one of those Dutch Play-Doh guitars, ever since).

Dingus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:28 pm Parkers are what made me an unrealistic asshole when it comes to guitar action

It was a gateway drug, for me: I subsequently bought a Carvin Holdsworth and Vigier Shawn Lane on the promise that they had the lowest factory action of any production guitars. Now that I understand what it takes to achieve low action, I better appreciate Ken achieving the best of a few worlds with the design he settled on. He’s one of the people I thank for making me a better guitar player (which is not to say I’m any good at it).

Dingus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:28 pm I paid 3500 for my S2 and it's worth every penny!

How about that $5,000 S2 listing currently up (which was just updated to the “priced-to-move” amount of…$4,800, plus $120 shipping, plus sales tax)?

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:06 pm Some sellers seemingly won’t budge on the asking price of their firewood Flys, citing erroneously that “any qualified repair person should be able fix this Fly’s truss rod” or “I’ll include the missing frets in a sandwich bag; which will save you money.”

Ooof—yes! I do see that sort of narrative from time to time and I seriously cringe. I can see how someone might think “yeah, I’ll just glue on a new fret—how hard could that be?!” A Fly with missing frets or a broken truss rod is worth, in my opinion, in the few hundreds of dollars for tinkerers looking for a project; it’s not like buying a Tesla with a missing hubcap, though I can understand how a seller that doesn’t really understand the work required might think that.

@mmguitar I'm with you on the Carvins/Kiesels they always do a wonderful job of getting super low action. I've sold and traded the last Aristides and Kiesels I had but both are in my future again for custom builds no doubt.

And yes that S2 for 5000 is a bit much. Although i supposed you could make a case for it being a rare color as well? I dunno...I do like that maple one that just got listed (relisted). I asked him if he was sure he wanted to roll with the "mint" description and he said no and moved it down to excellent I'd probably go as high as 3750 for it though.

P.S. Just had a fly hardtail delivered 30 minutes ago and guess what - half turn to tighten truss rod and we are good to go! I fucking love these guitars!

Pictures or it never happened!

Patzag wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:47 pm Pictures or it never happened!

JFYI when I tightened the truss rod on the Trashed Deluxe I only had to turn it 1/16th of a turn or so to get it how I like, Ever So Slightly Tightened it.
I guess it had .010"s before & now with .009"s it needed to have just a smidge less relief.. Seems Good To Go..
Didn't measure it with a feeler gauge just held the last fret with a capo on & touched in the middle, Guess .015" at the 12th Fret..

And Yeah @Dingus Pictures of the Hard tail Fly Please!!
He's probably still playing the $#!+ out of it & hasn't come to His Senses Yet..
Bet the Hard Tail is Lighter weight because of the lack of trem parts etc., But would have more wood & Sustain
Inquiring Mind Wanna Know!!

Congrats!!
Gary

Fly Rod wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:29 pm He's probably still playing the $#!+ out of it & hasn't come to His Senses Yet..

Can you blame him?! I love the Hardtail
Flys! And, yes, they are a bit lighter!

@flyrod mad respect for what you're doing. I don't know anyone who would take on something like that. I wish I had some spare parts for you I'd gladly donate them.

Just one pic for now, didn't get to spend much time with her and I probably shouldn't if I'm just gonna flip it. It was technically only bought because the price was too good. I know, the usual lame excuse haha I'm really conflicted about that white nut though. First one I've run across

@MMGuitar, sorry I'm slow, I have to reread stuff sometimes. I wanted to address when you said

"One sells for a bit over $2k after taxes, and the other for $5k+, after shipping and taxes. The (quite recent) buyer is currently selling the $5k Fly at a loss ($4500 privately, $4750 on Reverb). It’s clear that the sellers are thinking $$$ - But what are some of these buyers thinking? Is it a testament to their disposable income, or their gullibility? Are they telling themselves they’ll flip a $5k Fly for $10,000 next year?"

The answer in my case is fairly straightforward, draw what conclusions you will about how many more of me there are out there!
It is a testament to disposable income. As I collect more guitars, I keep running into guys who are buying a guitar per day. A 5k guitar every day. I ship them guitars so I look at their houses on the map...regular people these aren't mansions. I'm pretty blessed. I keep a pretty phrenetic pace. I'm for sure a 2 guitar a week guy right now average 3k each. I feel like that's pretty crazy and already out of control. So how does a guy who tells me he's in "construction" do it? I don't know but they are. And I keep running into them You've got a lot crypto rich guys out there, a lot of people who prospered because of the pandemic and a lot of guys who are just great at flipping guitars and have no fear at all about buying additional equipment. I could go into a whole philosophical thing about how we're all more isolated and have fewer connections with real people thus a guy like me, my only option if I want something is to buy from a stranger who's maxing the price out. I'm not able to buy face to face from someone I know or even a saleperson at a local store. But yeah I don't THINK that people are grabbing flys today hoping theyll be worth double in 10 years. I don't think that's the motivation behind willing to pay that price. I've paid everybody's favorite guy for 1 guitar. He had something rare and I paid up. What he may not understand is he probably could have had my money 7 or 8 other times. But he'd rather kill the golden goose, that's fine. Guys like that don't last. I hope he makes his money now, good for him

Dingus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:36 am It is a testament to disposable income.

I also suspect that this is the case in many instances.

Here's the thing I wonder though not just about Parkers but all collectible guitars...is the next generation really gonna give a shit about sweet guitars? Is this gonna burst like baseball cards?

Response for those who value their time: Yep. Electric guitars - The bygone symbol of 20th century corporate America - will be like baseball cards.

Typical, longwinded Marc diatribe version: Disposable income is fueling the trend/bubble - But sheer greed seems to be what’s driving it. I think we’re starting to see how the current mantra/hot potato game of “This guitar I just bought isn’t worth what I paid - It’s worth double, now” is only valid/profitable for as long as the next buyer believes it, too. And a few recent listings seem to have hit a ceiling, with regard to how “Whoever dies with the most Flys wins” has begat “I have to sell three of my Flys to buy this other one; now that buying multiple Flys at ludicrous asking prices has normalized and established asking prices beyond what I can currently afford.”

Over the past two years, I’ve observed two primary actors from the Facebook groups who have made no secret of their ambition to control the supply and demand of used Flys in the marketplace (one’s stated position is “Flys are the new Bitcoin”). But they’ve merely jumped in front of the parade of those eager to make up for not being able to afford a Fly twenty years ago; who now rationalize burning money as “investing” in these guitars.

Unlike the vintage car industry, however, no one is really in the “business” of refurbishing or restoring these guitars (As Jeff Babicz has done with old Steinbergers) - The shortcomings (so far) common to Parker flippers are that they aren’t mechanically inclined, and seem to feel entitled to instant gratification in reaping their investments. Hence, it’s rare that you see the Flys in need of repair (nonetheless doubling in asking price month-to-month as they change hands) undergoing any under-the-hood work beyond the harvesting of their poor springs . I’d go so far as to say that the flippers are going to regret not having parted out the pre-refined electronics, once this site’s namesake project effectively renders part scarcity obsolete (Though some will try and succeed on the basis of consumer ignorance; as those selling “vintage-correct” Fly Dimarzios for $300 have demonstrated).

So long as we have sellers refusing to discount (and in many egregious cases, disclose) mechanical and electronic issues ranging from factory defect to wear-and-tear in the course of pimping these guitars, the bubble seems destined to burst once the only Flys we see listed will be those in such poor shape that the hoarders either resort to unloading them at a loss, or they remain listed for years as a trap for the gullible (which some eBay and Reverb sellers seem to favor; what with their RARE!!! **READ DESCRIPTION** listings).

Dingus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:36 am I could go into a whole philosophical thing about how we're all more isolated and have fewer connections with real people

Are you referring specifically to pandemic-related isolation or just “modern times”? Either way, how might this relate to the “collectible guitar bubble” and its forthcoming burst?

Sorry my ADD gives into some random thoughts sometimes haha. The isolation comment was more about modern times and not just the pandemic. The bubble bursting more had to do with fewer people playing real instruments in modern music thus will the next generation care. I hope I'm just being fatalistic.

Hahaha no worries—thanks for the further points.

More abstract philosophizing:
When we talk about the bubble, are we talking about “people buying guitars as collectibles” or “people buying guitars as utilities/tools”? My impression based on what we’ve been saying is that the collectors are the ones participating in the bubble-ing more so than the players. Hard to know for certain, but does that seem right? There is, of course, overlap between the two (players and collectors).

The guitar is actually the most popular instrument in the world and, despite what we hear/see in mainstream pop music, the number of people playing guitars is actually up and continuing to go up (citations needed!). Maybe these players are also playing in isolation?

So if and when the bubble pops (when the levee breaks?!), I’d imagine it will have more to do with (the reduced number of) collectors more so than players; the players will still want/need the Parker “tools” for the job regardless of their collectible status—but would they be willing to pay “collectible” prices for Flys? And would they want/need more than one Fly?

Hi Everyone,

Looking to see what this 98 Nitefly would be worth in today’s market, I figured I would post to the forum to get the most accurate answers. I know prices are all over the place but essentially it is a 98 Nitefly in Black, with a custom pick guard and alternating Sperzels, but otherwise totally stock! Pictures below with better ones to come but ther will give an ideal overall probably a 9/10 condition wise, no major scratches or marks. Nitefly bag included too of course, thanks everybody!

Nice looking NiteFly, @Dachillies!

Over this past summer, I saw a few good condition NiteFlys sell at Guitar Center for around $700 +/- $50, and, for a long time, Reverb and eBay would routinely carry NiteFlys in 9/10 condition listed for around $800 - $950.

I’m fairly certain that the NiteFlys currently available at Guitar Center at $2k+ prices are the result of a misunderstanding between the NiteFly model and the Fly and not really a reflection of “the market”. Still, there are obviously people on eBay and Reverb asking north of $1k for their NiteFlys—whether or not they’re getting what they’re asking is a bit of a mystery, it seems.

If you’re thinking of selling this NiteFly, you’re welcome to make a listing in our Classifieds section with your asking price.