the Fly Clone Project

Hi all,

Many thanks, as always, to @vjmanzo, @Patzag, & @mmmguitar, for your immensely helpful input. Special thanks to Patzag for your generous offer to possibly part with your spare preamp. You've provided much to chew on here, with a few new options. I've found myself getting hung up about classic/antiquity value lately with this situation & reading the Greater Fool Theory has prompted me to get one thing (maybe the only thing) straight: My first priority is to end up with a fully functioning, exceptional guitar, which is what my Fly has always been. It seems that, whichever path I choose, I'm going to have to sort of "grow a pair" to undertake it. I'll, no doubt, consult with my guitar/tech, who's also been generously spending time discussing the situation with me, and share your thoughts/suggestions with him. We'll reach some plan, I'm sure. Thanks again!

tusker9 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:40 am My first priority is to end up with a fully functioning, exceptional guitar, which is what my Fly has always been.

This is a great perspective, @tusker9, and I don’t take arriving at this lightly. We all have the potential to embrace a reverence for any musical instrument to the point where a kind of “collector” sensibility creeps in and makes us extra cautious about dinging/changing/modifying or, generally, doing something other than making music with the instrument. Who is this hypothetical person to which you’re going to hypothetically one day sell your favorite instrument?!

I’m fortunate to have a friendship with Ken and one of the things that initially surprised me about him is how he seems to not have these reservations! If one of Ken’s own Flys needed new saddles, for example, he’d go make new saddles and be done with it—they’d probably look different, but he wouldn’t mind; there are plenty of examples of Ken’s affinity for experimentation on the #ParkerPrototypes, and I think many builders are bold and willing to change instruments—not recklessly, but as needed. Modifying instruments to fit the needs of performers is a much more established concept (really, since the beginning of humanity!) than the more recent notion that someone can keep an instrument in a glass case so it doesn’t “lose its value”.

Early on when we were finalizing the production Flex PCB replacements, we made a mistake, which resulted in us receiving a small batch of sets without any thru-holes—we put one set on display in the lab and put the rest in a box of “failed prototypes”; Ken asked if he could have a few of those for himself! In the video we made for those parts, the set that Ken is holding is actually a set that he’d just finish drilling holes into He didn’t even want a set of our “production run” parts where everything was automated and perfect; he was content with the parts he’d completed himself by hand! The point I’m trying to make is that he looks at instruments the way you’re describing: instruments ought to help you make music, so we ought to do what we need to do to get them functioning.

Greetings, I have been working on the tusker9 Parker Fly. I just want to be sure I understand the function of the switches and pots. The test matrix is confusing to me so I want to be sure I understand, e.g. is using a mono plug with the red button "IN" a valid use case?

Can I assume the MV is global and always controls the guitar output in all cases: Mag or Piezo, Mag and Piezo (3 way switch in any position), Mono or Stereo plug, Red button in or out.

Second: Is the MV output buffered in some way? All the MV pins are connected to the board, and I see the output of the stereo output jack is connected to the circuit board and not the MV pot (although it may be redirected on the board to the flex-tape, it's tough without a schematic of the board). So I wonder is the board mixing or buffering the output signal somehow?

Lastly: Is the pre-amp protected from mistaken connections, say connecting the guitar output to the output of a pedal or foot-switch jack of an amp?

Thanks, I appreciate any help understanding this guitar.

Hi Folks,

Firstly, thanks @vjmanzo for your insights regarding KP's approach to design/build. I'm a woodworker myself by day & have been keenly interested in Ken's innovations & philosophy.

I'm continuing to plan a fix of my '96 Fly Deluxe. I've asked my go-to guitar/amp tech, Frank Consiglio, to read your previous comments regarding my Fly. Frank has generously done so & listed some questions in the prior post.

At this juncture, I am leaning toward replacing the flexible PCB.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Thank you.

Hi!
My best effort:

is using a mono plug with the red button "IN" a valid use case? Very much. I use this ALL the time.

Can I assume the MV is global and always controls the guitar output in all cases: Mag or Piezo, Mag and Piezo (3 way switch in any position), Mono or Stereo plug, Red button in or out. Correct

Second: Is the MV output buffered in some way? All the MV pins are connected to the board, and I see the output of the stereo output jack is connected to the circuit board and not the MV pot (although it may be redirected on the board to the flex-tape, it's tough without a schematic of the board). So I wonder is the board mixing or buffering the output signal somehow? I believe so but I can't be sure. (Sorry!)

Lastly: Is the pre-amp protected from mistaken connections, say connecting the guitar output to the output of a pedal or foot-switch jack of an amp? No data

Thanks, I appreciate any help understanding this guitar. - Pleasure!

Thanks much for your input @Patzag!

Thanks for replying to my questions @Patzag , A schematic of the pre-amp system would be helpful. Is there one available? I have the 2 drawings of the flex tape, but without knowing what the brain does I am at a loss in finding a solution to the mystery: sometimes the MV works and sometimes it doesn't.

I understand from tusker9 that a Fishman Power Chip is a possible solution with some modifications. Is the stock pre-amp a Fishman product? Has anyone installed this Power Chip that I can reach out to?

Thanks

francuccino wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:53 pm A schematic of the pre-amp system would be helpful. Is there one available?

I don’t believe one exists as this was a proprietary device by Fishman, but both the original pre-amp and the Powerchip served two main functions: 1) a preamp for the piezo signal and 2) a mixer for the magnetic pickups and the piezo transducer. The flexes take the connections from all controls and the signal sources and handle the routing to the preamp—the folks at Parker Guitars in Wilmington were able to wire a Fly from scratch in under 10 minutes since the flex has all of the circuit connections accounted for. Again, the main function of the power chip beyond serving as a preamp is the manner in which signals from the mags or piezo could be mixed relative to one another.

Hope this helps!

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:00 pm

francuccino wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 12:53 pm A schematic of the pre-amp system would be helpful. Is there one available?

I don’t believe one exists as this was a proprietary device by Fishman, but both the original pre-amp and the Powerchip served two main functions: 1) a preamp for the piezo signal and 2) a mixer for the magnetic pickups and the piezo transducer. The flexes take the connections from all controls and the signal sources and handle the routing to the preamp—the folks at Parker Guitars in Wilmington were able to wire a Fly from scratch in under 10 minutes since the flex has all of the circuit connections accounted for. Again, the main function of the power chip beyond serving as a preamp is the manner in which signals from the mags or piezo could be mixed relative to one another.

Hope this helps!

What he said!

Yes thanks for the info. I found a Pre-refined wiring layout drawing, that looks hand drawn, showing the output jack Tip-Mag Ring-Piezo Sleeve-Ground, for Stereo operation I assume. I also assume the Mono/Stereo red button placed in the Mono position sets the output configuration to be a blend of Mag and Piezo on the tip, for use with a Mono plug, is that right? And with a Mono plug inserted, if you put the red button on Stereo the Piezo signal is grounded and lost. Am I correct so far? Lastly, if a Mono jack is inserted and the red button is in the Stereo position, the MV works as a second volume for the Mag. But since Piezo is lost, turning the Mag Vol down to 0 or MV to 0 sound is lost.

I am sorry to be so slow on the uptake here, but my understanding is that with a mono jack inserted, the red button has got to be in the Mono position or you lose Piezo and the MV is redundant. The MV is of value(to me) when the type of jack inserted matches the red button position. I should rerun the test cases.

Thanks for your patience.

francuccino wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 8:44 pm Yes thanks for the info. I found a Pre-refined wiring layout drawing, that looks hand drawn, showing the output jack Tip-Mag Ring-Piezo Sleeve-Ground, for Stereo operation I assume. I also assume the Mono/Stereo red button placed in the Mono position sets the output configuration to be a blend of Mag and Piezo on the tip, for use with a Mono plug, is that right? And with a Mono plug inserted, if you put the red button on Stereo the Piezo signal is grounded and lost. Am I correct so far? Lastly, if a Mono jack is inserted and the red button is in the Stereo position, the MV works as a second volume for the Mag. But since Piezo is lost, turning the Mag Vol down to 0 or MV to 0 sound is lost.

I am sorry to be so slow on the uptake here, but my understanding is that with a mono jack inserted, the red button has got to be in the Mono position or you lose Piezo and the MV is redundant. The MV is of value(to me) when the type of jack inserted matches the red button position. I should rerun the test cases.

Thanks for your patience.

100% correct on all counts!

Completely unrelated—every single time I read the title of this thread, my brain serves up this jingle from my childhood:

Ok @vjmanzo, you busted me for reference to Still The One song by Orleans, (circa 1975). Had no idea, (or had forgotten) it was used in a hamburger commercial! Would a highly moral songwriter allow this to happen to his song? (Just kidding) You're apparently way younger than I if '96 was your childhood!!

But seriously, thanks all for your input about the Fly. We'll get to the bottom of this yet.

tusker9 wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 8:25 pm Ok @vjmanzo, you busted me for reference to Still The One song by Orleans, (circa 1975). Had no idea, (or had forgotten) it was used in a hamburger commercial! Would a highly moral songwriter allow this to happen to his song? (Just kidding) You're apparently way younger than I if '96 was your childhood!!

But seriously, thanks all for your input about the Fly. We'll get to the bottom of this yet.

Jeez, no one mentioned Shania yet?

Thanks for your post @patzag: Have to say, don't think I've ever seen anyone playing country on a Parker, so maybe not so surprising about Shania. I remember hearing her Still the One, now that you mentioned it. Can't copyright a title. Learning about so much more than Parker guitars on this forum!

tusker9 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 7:01 am don't think I've ever seen anyone playing country on a Parker, so maybe not so surprising about Shania.

Actually, a fellow Fly Clone member was Shania’s guitarist for decades! He’s a huge Fly Bronze/Concert guy and he performed his solo country music is on a Fly though I think on stage with Shania he played other instruments.

With the tusker9 Parker Fly back in the shop I reran the the test matrix. With the 3-Way Mag-Piezo switch in the middle, and the Master volume all the way down, there is Piezo signal bleed thru to the amp. This occurs in Mono with a mono plug AND Stereo with a stereo plug and splitter.

Testing the 3 Way M/P selector switch on the bench, the switch rings out ok, but I found low resistance between pins 1 and 3. Like close to 0 ohms. When I removed the flex tape "B" from the 16 pin connector, isolating the switch,measuring the switch the short went away. The flex tape "B" Pin 1 and Pin 2 are connected to the 3 way switch, pin 1 and 3, it appears on the print.

Question: On the amp board should these two pins from the selector switch, Mag and Piezo be shorted? Or electrically measure very low resistance in circuit?

Hi @vjmanzo, Nice to know Shania's guitarist plays Parker(s). Don't know much about Bronze/Concert. I've seen that Joni Mitchel has played a Parker which has no visible (mag) pickups, I'm thinking that must be what she must have been playing. Having severe country leanings in my own playing, a friend told me, when I first got the Fly, that he was surprised that I would get a guitar that looked like that!

Diverting from nursing my Fly back to health for a moment, a bit of interesting (to me at least) music trivia: I was prompted to look into Still The One writers, John & Joana Hall. Married when they wrote it, released in 1976 by John's band, Orleans, reached #5 on Billboard. The song has been used in numerous commercials & promotions. John Hall & publisher issued a cease & desist to George Bush & John McCain for using it at campaign rallies without permission. John Hall served as NY state congressman around 2008-2011, a big proponent of renewable energy.

Back to fixing Fly: I've been discussing possible solutions with my go-to guitar tech, Frank, aka @francuccino here. I'm working up to replacing the flex PCB as a first step. Frank discovered the mag/piezo switch essentially shorts out when in middle position when connected to the board, but when isolated, works/tests fine. Still have some questions about adapting Fishman Powerchip, if necessary, to make it all work.

Thanks all.

tusker9 wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:34 pm Hi @vjmanzo, Nice to know Shania's guitarist plays Parker(s). Don't know much about Bronze/Concert. I've seen that Joni Mitchel has played a Parker which has no visible (mag) pickups, I'm thinking that must be what she must have been playing. Having severe country leanings in my own playing, a friend told me, when I first got the Fly, that he was surprised that I would get a guitar that looked like that!

Diverting from nursing my Fly back to health for a moment, a bit of interesting (to me at least) music trivia: I was prompted to look into Still The One writers, John & Joana Hall. Married when they wrote it, released in 1976 by John's band, Orleans, reached #5 on Billboard. The song has been used in numerous commercials & promotions. John Hall & publisher issued a cease & desist to George Bush & John McCain for using it at campaign rallies without permission. John Hall served as NY state congressman around 2008-2011, a big proponent of renewable energy.

Back to fixing Fly: I've been discussing possible solutions with my go-to guitar tech, Frank, aka @francuccino here. I'm working up to replacing the flex PCB as a first step. Frank discovered the mag/piezo switch essentially shorts out when in middle position when connected to the board, but when isolated, works/tests fine. Still have some questions about adapting Fishman Powerchip, if necessary, to make it all work.

Thanks all.

Hi there! How's the update? Getting your baby back to health?

Hi all,

Thanks @Patzag for asking for status update on my '96 Fly.

It seems that we're at an impass as to formulating a complete strategy for a fix. At this juncture, I'm not inclined to undertake modifying the Fishman Powerchip as a substitute for the original Fly preamp. I feel that there are too many "unknowns". Frank (francuccino), my go-to tech, has said he could replace the flexible PCB with the new one now available. However, if after replacing flex PCB, it turns out that the preamp is the problem, there lies the missing link.

Frank has been testing my Fly, attempting to get a clear picture of how it all works. To review the situation; it's only when mag/piezo toggle is in middle position (both mag & piezo on), that the master volume doesn't function properly. In his post from 5/5/23 (or thereabout), he had a question which has gone unanswered. His post is pasted below:

"With the tusker9 Parker Fly back in the shop I reran the the test matrix. With the 3-Way Mag-Piezo switch in the middle, and the Master volume all the way down, there is Piezo signal bleed thru to the amp. This occurs in Mono with a mono plug AND Stereo with a stereo plug and splitter.

Testing the 3 Way M/P selector switch on the bench, the switch rings out ok, but I found low resistance between pins 1 and 3. Like close to 0 ohms. When I removed the flex tape "B" from the 16 pin connector, isolating the switch,measuring the switch the short went away. The flex tape "B" Pin 1 and Pin 2 are connected to the 3 way switch, pin 1 and 3, it appears on the print.

Question: On the amp board should these two pins from the selector switch, Mag and Piezo be shorted? Or electrically measure very low resistance in circuit?"

So Frank is thinking that the toggle switch is ok, which seems to be confirmed when isolated from the preamp (but shorts out when connected to circuit - in mid position). At least that's my understanding.

As usual, many thanks for any input you might have.

PS- Sorry for not having figured out proper way to paste a post.